Sunday, September 15, 2013
Who is he? Post 1
How would you compare Chris and Holden? Consider those they interact with throughout the first 60 pages? Are they likeable? Irritating? Intelligent? Loners? How did you react? Who is a more sympathetic character? Explain, properly blending a quotation from the book you are currently reading. Please comment on a fellow class mate's post.
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Chris and Holden are both rather cynical young men, although they both have plenty of friends. I found myself annoyed at McCandless, but I sympathized with Holden. After all, when Holden got back from fencing, and there was a sports game going on at the school, what he thought about it was, "Game, my ass. Some game. If you get on the side where all the hot-shots are, then it's a game, all right - I'll admit that. But if you get on the other side, where there aren't any hot-shots, then what's a game about it? Nothing. No game" (Salinger 8). Basically, Holden is cynical, but what he's cynical about actually makes sense to me. In this case, he's pointing out that games are a lot more fun for the side that's good at them- a phenomenon I've often observed in gym class. I suppose the reason I like Holden more than McCandless is pretty basic at the heart of it. Holden complains about people being fake. McCandless does, too, but then he lies about his name and who is is and completely misrepresents himself. I don't like hypocrites.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I agree with the majority of what you said in your post, I do disagree with you saying McCandless was a hypocrite. I believe that he did misrepresent himself, but I think it was so that he was only himself. He didn't want to be the person who was angry with his parents and faked being their "friend" through high school and college. I interpreted his misrepresentation as protection and as his way of only being who he is deep inside. This is just another way to interpret the same information, so please don't take this as my saying you are wrong, because that is not what I mean to do!
DeleteI disagree with your statement that Chris is a hypocrite. He did not change his name and his life to make him more likeable to others, he did it for himself as a way of escaping his past. However, he is outrageously witless for being so ill-prepared and careless when dealing with is life.
DeleteChris McCandless and Holden are both very independent/ both wish for independence. Chris and Holden also connect to their siblings but try to get away from their parents. Chris had been lying to his family about where he was and when they went for a visit the parents were surprised. "When they arrived at his apartment, it was empty and a FOR RENT sign was taped to the window." (Krakauer 22) The parents would never see Chris again, all the letters that they had sent were collected by the post master and returned. Neither character is 100% likeable and makes you want to be friends with them. They can both be irritating because neither obeys authority and does their own thing, both are loners. However Holden does not want to be a loner, he is an attention seeker. Holden is a more sympathetic character because the reader really gets the feeling that he wants to liked and to be part of the group, he just has trouble. Chris and Holden both have a wish fo independence that they will do pretty much anything to achieve.
ReplyDeleteI like what you said about how neither character is 100% likable, because I think that both characters have qualities that are pretty obnoxious.
DeleteGood context to go along with the quote, good analysis on both of their feelings towards authority and independence, but blending could be more smooth.
DeleteI like what you said about them not being 100% likable. They both have characteristics that you like about them but there are also some characteristics and things that they do that you can't stand. They are like a person that you like to talk to, but only on certain occasions, not on a day to day all the time regular basis.
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ReplyDeleteChris and Holden are both teenagers who think they have the ability to make it alone in the world. Chris however is more so a loner than Holden. Holden constantly seeks attention and acceptance while Chris constantly moves away from it. Both boys are non-conformists of society. They try intentionally to act different than everyone else. Chris speaks in his journal, “It is the experiences, the memories, the great triumphant joy of living to the fullest extent in which real meaning is found” (37 Krakauer). Chris finds joy in seclusion and by no possessions, which is unlike anyone in our society. Holden however looks to people for happiness instead of running away from them, making Holden easier to sympathize for. Although both boys are similar, Chris is much more of a loner.
ReplyDeleteChris looks for people a lot, too, though. He hangs out with complete strangers for months and everybody loves him. I would argue neither of them are more of a loner.
DeleteChris and Holden are two totally different people. Even though they both want to be independent, they have their own ways of showing it. Holden is more willing to make friends and mentions Stradlater and Ackley quite a bit throughout the first 60 pages. For Chris, he doesn’t make many friends, instead people actually attach themselves to Chris. When they meet him and give him a ride, they always feel bad for him and want to help him out. I think Holden is more likeable because he is actually willing to show his emotions whereas Chris is just doing his own thing and doesn’t want anyone to know how he feels. Chris is more of an irritating character because he has such a good life at home and decides that instead he was going to go and live out in the words to prove his independence. Chris is more of a loner because he doesn’t share his emotions. Holden is a more sympathetic character because he is always lonely and it makes the reader feel bad for him. At the end of the night when Holden left Ackley’s room and was standing in the hallway, he decided that he was going to leave Pencey because he said, “It made me too sad and lonesome,” (Salinger51). This made me feel bad for Holden because he was going to leave and be by himself because he was depressed at Pencey. When Chris chose to leave, it was because he wanted to show how he could be independent where Holden was feeling depressed.
ReplyDeleteGood job blending your quote. It definitely supports your point and helps to show how Holden is feeling in the beginning of the book.
DeleteI agree although they came from similar backgrounds and stories they both go around it in very different ways.
DeleteChris and Holden are both striving for independence and breaking from the “game of life” to be their own person, but their connection with people and their own feelings differ. Although Holden desires for friendships with anyone, he cannot make them. Chris does not strive for friendships with people, but those connections are created anyways. He meets a man named Franz who becomes so connected to Chris that he “asked Alex if I could adopt him, if he would be my grandson” and Chris responds “We’ll talk about it when I get back from Alaska, Ron” (Krakauer 55). Chris cannot keep the friendships because of his desire to move on and complete his goal of going into the wild. Because of Chris’s lack of openness to friendships and his own feelings, I am sympathize less with him than with Holden. Holden always talks about how depressed and sad he is, rarely having a moment of when he is happy.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Chris has connections come so easily to him. Along with Franz, he stopped his religion when he heard the news of Chris dying, this shows that Chris really does leave an impression on people. Great job at blending your quote!! Try to anallysis the quote just a little more, mabye 1 more sentence.
DeleteChris and Holden are very different in the way that they interact with other people. Both, however, have friends, they just choose them different ways. Chris McCandless doesn’t pick and chose. People always have fond memories of him, even when his overall emotion wasn’t the best, there wasn’t a whole lot of bad things to say about him. Chris McCandless was someone who was easy to get attached to, and obviously easier to relate to. “It was raining when Franz dropped McCandless at the San Diego waterfront. ‘It was a very hard thing for me to do,’ Franz says. ‘I was sad to be leaving him.’“ (Krakauer 53). Holden, on the other hand, is the one who decides who his friends are, and most of the time, even those he says are his friends, aren’t. The more sympathetic of the two is definitely Holden, because of how much more open he is in the book with his emotions, or as Salinger portrays him. We can clearly tell when Holden is depressed or upset about something, and he visibly shows it to others. Also, McCandless doesn’t seem to be very attention seeking. He is not looking for someone to be sympathetic with him, as we see in several accounts where he tells people that he is fully prepared to go out into the wild.
ReplyDeleteYour evidence that you chose to use supports what your saying because you were talking about people being connected to Chris and then the quote said, "It was a very hard thing for me to do," which shows that Franz didn't want to drop off Chris. When you blend the quote, you might want to add something in the beginning of the quote, but your context was very good. Your analysis of the quote was also very good because then you talked about Holden and how he is the on who makes friends.
DeleteAlthough Chris and Holden may seem similar at first, I think they’re actually very different. Chris is more to himself. He’s going on this adventure to better himself, and to learn from it. He wants to survive completely on his own, even without necessities like money and a lot of food. Holden on the other hand, wants attention. I get the impression that he almost wants to be kicked out of school so he can go off on his own. He likes the attention from people, even if he claims they’re phonies and fake, which is very annoying to me. Chris didn’t even want people to know his real name, and he never actually asked for help, he’s a loner but he likes that. Sure, he definitely did accept help, but he didn’t go out looking for it. Chris was also very appreciative of those who helped him, and he often stayed in touch with them, sending him updates on his whereabouts, “Greetings from Seattle! I’m a hobo now! Thats right, I’m riding the rails now. What fun, I wish I had jumped trains earlier” (Krakauer 52). Chris appreciates his experiences. Holden however complains about his life most of the time. He’s always whining about people being phonies, and saying he doesn’t understand simple things like why they clap for a performer. He doesn’t appreciate the little things in life. Because of how attention seeking Holden is, I’m more sympathetic towards Chris. However, I don’t really think Chris needs or wants much sympathy because he’s so independent.
ReplyDeleteI really like that you said Holden got kicked out of school for the attention and so he can go off on his own. I didn't think about it that way but it really does make sense. I really like how you looked into how what a whiner Holden is. It helps contrast the two characters. It shows Chris is more tough while Holden is a little immature baby. Also the quote perfectly shows how although Chris is in a tough situation, he can still find the positive while Holden would be ready to off himself.
DeleteBoth Chris and Holden are likable, and both are intelligent. I would say that they seek independence, but deep down all they need is somebody to love them. I feel chris is more of a loner, he is closed with his emotions to other people. Holden is more open for his need for someone, saying straight up he is depressed: “I had to pack these brand-new ice skates my mother had practically sent me a couple of days before. That depressed me.”
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, with Chris is less open, the people he met on his trip never said he was sad. With Holden being more open with his feelings, you can sympathise more with him. He talks more honestly and pulls back to other stories in his life, and tells the truth on everything (except what he lies to himself about).
I agree with the idea about Holden and Chris's openness to people and their own feelings, but there should be a sentence or more about the analysis of your quote and ideas. I want to be able to read this and pry into your mind, figuring out your deeper thoughts on the openness of Holden and Chris.
DeleteChris and Holden are both quite similar in that they are incredibly independent. They are also quite connected to their siblings and disconnected from their parents, suggesting that they have a lack of respect for authority. They are both likeable characters, although probably not the most intelligent when one considers the situations they get themselves into. Holden and Chris were both irritating characters to read about, because some of things they did were downright stupid. Part of that comes from the fact that they both believed they were capable of making it on their own, when in reality they needed someone there to guide them and to accept them. However, Chris showed a lesser degree of need for acceptance than did Holden. He seemed to have no problems with being alone and making his way around out west. Holden, on the other hand, attempted to travel through New York City alone, but was constantly talking about all of the people he could reach out to talk to. But, every time Holden mentioned someone he could call, he typically followed it by saying he didn't feel like it. The way that Holden narrated his story made it much easier to feel sympathetic towards him, because in the story of Chris McCandless, written by a journalist, the reader wasn't able to make as much of a connection to the character due to the fact that the narrator was not the character himself. There is also the fact that Holden appears to be depressed throughout the novel, even at the end, when he says, "Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody" (Salinger 214). This shows how Holden tries to be independent despite the fact that he really craves acceptance. That is what makes Holden the more sympathetic character - his vulnerability. Even though he tries to be strong and tough on the outside, the reader is able to see, without much effort, that he is actually on the verge of falling apart. With Chris, I didn't get that feeling.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that Chris is stronger than Holden, who is really on the verge of falling. I think that it is easier for Chris to be alone because he truly is a non conformist. Whereas Holden is really seeking attention from people. I disagree with your idea that Holden and Chris weren't really intelligent because I think that they were, but Holden didn't show it because he never applied himself. For instance, Holden failed every class except english at many different schools, which is most likely because he thought his teacher was "phony." On the other hand, I think Chris needed to be knowledgeable in order to survive in Alaska for as long as he did.
DeleteHolden and Chris are similar with their problems with authority, the relationship with their siblings and their incredible stubbornness. They are both loners but in Holden’s case the relationships with other people are more forced. He is anti-social with people he knows. Where as Chris makes relationships with strangers and gets close. I find myself liking McCandless more but that might just be because on the outside he is one of those tough guys that don’t show feelings and thinks he can do everything and anything. I get this from when Tracy says, “‘I thought he’d be fine in the end,’” and “‘ He figured all of that out on his own, and I felt sure he’d figure out Alaska, too.’” (Krakauer, 46) McCandless had managed to survive canoeing down to Mexico and hopping trains. Although McCandless is more likable, I sympathize with Holden. Holden wants to be accepted and wants to be liked. In my eyes it’s kind of like Holden is pathetic. I don’t use that as something harsh. He’s trying to be liked and in doing so becoming phoney. It makes you feel pity towards him.
ReplyDeleteI like how you mention that Chris is more of a tough guy. I never really saw him that way before, but it really makes sense. This also showed how other people saw him as independent and tough, but I got the impression that Holden was thought of as more troubled and lost, which also makes more sense to why you sympathize with him even if you like Chris more. Holden really does portray himself as pathetic, which is odd because he's the one telling the story, and generally people don't want others to think they're pathetic. He's very attention seeking.
DeleteIt doesn't at all seem like it, but Chris and Holden actually share a lot of similarities. Both had very well-to-do families, and lived pretty privileged lives. Except that Chris is a little closer to his family, and he has a greater appreciation for the simple things in life. Chris is also a lot more intelligent, while Holden genuinely doesn't care at all about education. I think that actually Holden is a a lot more likable than Chris because Chris is one of those people that forces his beliefs on others. So, at first I found Chris very irritating. With Holden, he just seems to be a kid that is trying to make sense of his and get through it. They both come across as loners, but Holden is more attention-seeking, and seems to dwell on his interactions with people, like when he talks Jane and Stradlater. I sympathize a lot more with Holden because he doesn't talk down to people, and he seems to show his emotions more, instead of hiding them and making others mad because they don’t understand. He also doesn't force his beliefs on others. When Holden says: “ I don't give a damn, except that i get bored sometimes when people tell me to act my age. Sometimes I act a lot older than I am- I really do- but people never notice it. People never notice anything”(9), it makes me feel sympathetic towards him because it seems like he is just trying to be understood, and he himself is trying to understand the world. It seems like he never got any attention as a kid or never had a true friend. Whereas Chris had a very loving family, and a good life, but he CHOSE to have his outlook on the world and feel the way he did.
ReplyDelete^^This is Charlotte Miller's post.
DeleteIn my opinion Chris in Holden are both very similar because of their desire to be independent and their aversion to conformity. For instance, Holden leaves Pencey Prep to be alone in the city instead of just going home to his parents. Similarly Chris leaves his family and his money to hitchhike to Alaska. However, I think that Chris was more of a nonconformist than Holden, who was really seeking attention and approval. Holden liked to say people were "phony" and was very cynical, making him less approachable. On the other hand, Chris, who was more of a loner, made strong connections to people without even trying. For example, Franz, a man who grow close to Chris while giving him rides, told Krakauer, "I prayed. I asked God to keep his finger on the shoulder of that one; I told him that boy was special. But he let alex die. So on December 26, when I learned what happened, I renounced the Lord. I withdrew my church membership and became an atheist. I decided I couldn't believe in a God who would let something that terrible happen to a boy like Alex" (Krakauer 60). I thought this quote said a lot about Chris's natural ability to make deep connections with people because Franz gave up his religion when he found out that Chris had died even though he only knew him for a short time, before Chris went to Alaska.
ReplyDeleteChris and Holden both have a strong desire to be independent and different from the rest of the world. Although the two have a similar desire, Chris is more successful in fulfilling his. I feel more sympathetic towards Holden, though, because he is not fully able to control his feelings; there isn't a simple way he can make himself feel better that he has access to all the time like Chris, who is “overjoyed upon reaching the Colorado River” (Krakauer 32) and other simple aspects of life and nature. Chris and Holden are alike in other ways too, like their relations to their families. Holden leaves school and goes to New York where his family lives and talks to his sister to feel better, whereas Chris leaves school without saying anything to his family and changes his name and info so they can’t find him, even with the private investigator they hired who could not find his whereabouts. Both Holden and Chris wanted to to find pure joy in their own unique ways, which is why their journeys are so interesting.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the sympathy towards Holden. He doesn't quite find the same peace and joy that Chris finds automatically. They both work towards joy, but we can't all be successful in finding happiness on journeys we think will be life changing. The way you inserted the quote fits very well and blends wonderfully.
DeleteChris and Holden are very similar in that they are not entirely likable, but are also very insecure. Holden has trouble throughout the entire book interacting with people and generally forming good relationships. He has trouble expressing himself and is very unsure a lot of the time. McCandless also has trouble with the truth and with putting himself out there. After Westerberg had known McCandless for quite some time, he "discovered from a tax form that McCandless's real name was Chris, not Alex. "He never explained why he'd changed his name," says Westerberg." This is very telling of McCandless's issues with being himself. He does not even disclose his true identity to his "friends." I think that McCandless is the more likable character because although some of his actions, like going into the Alaskan wilderness completely unprepared, borderline stupid, he obviously has issues in his past that he needs to work through. Holden, on the other hand, had issues, but didn't do anything to try and work through them. He just tried and failed repeatedly.
ReplyDeleteHolden and Chris are both very similar. They are sort of loners, they don't tend to take initiative to really have a good friendship or relationship with anybody. They are fine with being on their own and don't tend to go out an about a lot. They also tend to avoid confrontation, specifically with their parents, especially Holden who decides to leave school a little early after getting kicked out and stays in a hotel for a couple days so that he doesn't have to go home and break the news to his parents that he got kicked out of school he wants to wait until they receive the letter from the school "I figured my parents probably wouldn't get old Thurmer's letter saying I'd been given the ax till maybe Tuesday or Wednesday. I didn't want to go home or anything till they got it and thoroughly digested it and all. I didn't want to be around when they first got it. My mother gets very hysterical. She's not too bad after she gets something thoroughly digested, though" (Salinger 51). This is like when Chris decides not to tell his parents that he left school and donated all of the money left in his savings. Instead he just lets them find out on their own when they get a notice saying all the money was donated. Both of them avoid confronting their parents and having to deal with the aftermath of them reacting to the fact that their son isn't doing what they thought he was doing.
ReplyDeleteI like how you mentioned that they both tend not to take initiative in making connections with other people. Throughout both of the books it is clear that they are loners, independent, and even somewhat stubborn when connecting with other people.
DeleteI like how you tied in the fact that holden and Chris both avoided telling their parents about the fact that they left school. It really shows how Chris and Holden are similar in the fact that they want to be independent, but I feel like they don't face their problems head on, like not telling their parents they are no longer in school.
DeleteChris and Holden are both very insightful on the world around them, and both have a desire for independence. During each of their stories you find that they both have a desire for independence. Holden’s craving for independence is most likely connected to his feeling of alienation, which results from the bitterness he has towards the rest of the world. Chris’s independence is shown when he goes off on his own to immerse himself in nature to believe in the values he thought were worthwhile and pursue the ideals that he felt were important. What allows both of them to be so independent is that they are both also very intelligent. After Wayne Westberg got to know Chris a little he had a pretty good idea of what he was like. Westberg that that “you could tell right away that Alex was intelligent” (18). As we get further into the story of Christopher McCandless we learn that he actually did very well in school and overall was a clever student. Chris’s intelligence can also be compared to Holden’s. Although it is clear that Chris is intelligent I believe that Holden is highly intelligent. This can be seen from Holden’s insightful and distinctive commentary on the events that happen throughout his life. Overall I think that Chris and Holden are very similar in the their characteristics which show throughout their stories.
ReplyDeleteI really agree with you Patrick! I think that they both are intelligent people and that's why they like being Independent. Chris doesn't show his intelligent side though he's very bitter because of everything that's happened in his life. Chris intelligent, but he likes being too alone that he doesn't share it.
DeleteChris and Holden are both very independent. However, Chris is much more outward with his independence. They both seem to dislike most relationships with other people but Chris was more or less shutting out those relationships while Holden is more so just insecure. Holden's attitude is a lot more relatable and casual which makes him a lot more likeable than Chris. Chris just did not think things through enough which is, what I see so far as, the opposite of Holden who seems to take advantage of his alone time to think about things. Holden is also a lot more likeable because of the sort of humor he puts into his thoughts, for example, "Sensitive. That killed me. That guy Morrow was about as sensitive as a goddam toilet seat." (Salinger 55) Holden is just an all-around more casual and simplistic guy. The two also share a strong sense of stubbornness and a lacking respect for authority. They both are quite disconnected from their parents and often do not take advice from others. I do not find either of them particularly irritating, however, I think that Chris was extremely ill-equipped and far too careless. Ultimately, Chris and Holden share general characteristics, but they often convey and personalize those characteristics in two very different ways.
ReplyDeleteChris and Holden are very similar in the fact that they both want to be independent, however Chris is far more likeable than Holden. Chris would send his parents his parking tickets and such and it atleast showed Chris's parents that he was alive. This makes him far more sympathetic than Holden. Both characters though are very annoying because Chris went in the wild unprepared while Holden just is stupid. As Holden is leaving the prep school he yells "Sleep tight, ya morons! I'll bet I woke up every bastard on the whole floor" (Salinger 52.) Holden is annoying and takes out his anger on everyone else, so he brings other people down with him while looking to be independent. At least when Chris left to go to Alaska he did it quietly and didn't bring down so many people. This makes Chris far more likeable because I feel like he cares more about other people and doesn't want to hurt them where Holden really doesn't care.
ReplyDeletesuper duper annoyed all of that just deleted :)))
ReplyDeleteChris and Holden both want to be independent, but in different situations. Holden feels the need to be independent surrounded by people, and by growing up. Chris wants to be alone, and with nature. What Chris does annoys me, though. He goes unprepared into the wild; I'm not surprised in the least bit he dies.He passed up an opportunity many people would've killed for, "the author describes a man who has give away a small fortune, forsaken a loving family, abandoned his car, watch an map and burned the last of his money before traipsing off into the 'wilderness" (Krakauer 71). Holden, though I love him, seems to have a feeling of condescension. He looks down on other people, and believes them to be phonies. As for intelligence, they both have a different kind. While Alex has book smarts, Holden has street smarts- and neither would be in the mess they get in if they had swapped smarts.
Both Holden and Chris are alike because both are very independent. Chris actually ditches society and changes his name for away. Holden ditches society for 3 days actually by running away from his problems. Although both independent, Chris and Holden interact with other very differently. Chris makes friends and acquaintances based on who helped him on his journey. He never worked for long. For example, when Chris worked at McDonald’s, “about three weeks later, he just walked out the door and quit.” (Krakauer 41) Even when Chris randomly quit, he usually kept in contact with his employer. Holden, on the other hand, makes friends and acquaintances because he needs interaction. Although it seems like all Holden wants is to be alone, what he really wants is to surround himself with people. It is hard for Holden to interact and understand people and he tries really hard to teach himself how. To some, Holden and Chris can be irritating, but I think they are interesting. Neither of them like society and try to run away from it. They use different coping methods and its interesting to see how it works out.
ReplyDeleteI think that Chris and Holden are very independent, but very unlikable at times. Chris just wants to be by himself, and Holden just likes exploring the world too, but doing whatever he wants to do to make his parents mad. I think they are unlikable at times because I want them to get some friends they can't be alone all the time. You can explore the world together with friends instead of being loners and hating everything. "You don't need human relationships to be happy, God has placed it all around (Chris 57) Chris just likes being alone and having a relationship with God and that's how he keeps himself happy with his independence. He's a very genuine person.
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